Jesus the Bartender
For fun, I lurk around Fundies Say the Darndest Things. That particular link will take you to the following quote by Andy Schlafly, Phillis Schlafly's brain-dead son and, um ... author of Conservapedia. Follow the link if you want to see the rest of the commentary.
"The second chapter of the Gospel of John describes the conversion of water into wine by Jesus at a wedding reception. Intuitively one would expect the conversion to occur before anyone tasted the drink. But under quantum mechanics, it is not until observation that matter acquires a definite state. John 2:9 describes this precisely as required by quantum mechanics, and the KJV misses this subtle issue of timing in the conversion." - Andy Schlafly, Conservapedia, Biblical scientific foreknowledge
Of course, trying to derive quantum mechanics from a Bible quote is like trying to get a signed prenuptial agreement from a blow-up doll. Really, there are just so many levels of fail! Here, thanks to another poster on FSTDT, is what the Bible passage says.
John 2:7-10
7 Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." So they filled them up to the brim.
8 And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the steward." So they took it to him.
9 When the steward tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom,
10 and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."
Sure.
My first comment was to state that this is an often-repeated parlor trick that has nothing to do with magic and/or miracles. So many people have reproduced this that I can't understand why anyone would pay any credence to this. I fear I was less than diplomatic. My exact words were:
It's an f-ing parlor trick you dipshit. How many people have to repeat it before you admit that it isn't magic? It's fraud!
Water: H-O-H
Wine: A complex mixture of water, alcohol, esters, organic components of grapes, Lactobacillus vini, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, and other agents of fermentation. It is a product of the controlled decomposition of juice pressed from grapes. You don't happen across it. You find it in barrels, casks, bottles and boxes because humans made it and put it there.
Maybe you should try to explain it with cold fusion, or wormholes to a parallel universe.
Andy: ever the dipshit.
This comment drew the following observation from a poster going by the name of nutbunny.
@ breakerslion:
He is Jesus.
He can do anything.
Chemistry means nothing when God decides to fuck around.
That got me thinking about this in a whole different way. What proof could one offer directly from the narrative that this was a gimmick and not a miracle? This is what I came up with.
(Yes, but) starting with that premise opens up a larger can of worms.
1. Is the end product real wine or synthetic pseudowine? (edit: To be clear, is this a whomped-up, exact chemical copy of wine, or did it come from grapes?)
2. If real, where did it come from?
3. If synthetic, why was it necessary to start with water? Where did all the other elements come from (Carbon, Nitrogen, Misc other trace)?
4. If real, why was it necessary to start with water? Was this some kind of "packrat" teleportation, and some poor slob wound up with several wine jars full of water? Stealing is not all that miraculous.
5. Why allow your minions to get close enough to fuck with it? A really impressive miracle would be, "Go pick up that empty wine jar," and hey presto! it's full again!
In short, if this is a miracle, why did it need a stage magician's set up?
"The second chapter of the Gospel of John describes the conversion of water into wine by Jesus at a wedding reception. Intuitively one would expect the conversion to occur before anyone tasted the drink. But under quantum mechanics, it is not until observation that matter acquires a definite state. John 2:9 describes this precisely as required by quantum mechanics, and the KJV misses this subtle issue of timing in the conversion." - Andy Schlafly, Conservapedia, Biblical scientific foreknowledge
Of course, trying to derive quantum mechanics from a Bible quote is like trying to get a signed prenuptial agreement from a blow-up doll. Really, there are just so many levels of fail! Here, thanks to another poster on FSTDT, is what the Bible passage says.
John 2:7-10
7 Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." So they filled them up to the brim.
8 And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the steward." So they took it to him.
9 When the steward tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom,
10 and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."
Sure.
My first comment was to state that this is an often-repeated parlor trick that has nothing to do with magic and/or miracles. So many people have reproduced this that I can't understand why anyone would pay any credence to this. I fear I was less than diplomatic. My exact words were:
It's an f-ing parlor trick you dipshit. How many people have to repeat it before you admit that it isn't magic? It's fraud!
Water: H-O-H
Wine: A complex mixture of water, alcohol, esters, organic components of grapes, Lactobacillus vini, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, and other agents of fermentation. It is a product of the controlled decomposition of juice pressed from grapes. You don't happen across it. You find it in barrels, casks, bottles and boxes because humans made it and put it there.
Maybe you should try to explain it with cold fusion, or wormholes to a parallel universe.
Andy: ever the dipshit.
This comment drew the following observation from a poster going by the name of nutbunny.
@ breakerslion:
He is Jesus.
He can do anything.
Chemistry means nothing when God decides to fuck around.
That got me thinking about this in a whole different way. What proof could one offer directly from the narrative that this was a gimmick and not a miracle? This is what I came up with.
(Yes, but) starting with that premise opens up a larger can of worms.
1. Is the end product real wine or synthetic pseudowine? (edit: To be clear, is this a whomped-up, exact chemical copy of wine, or did it come from grapes?)
2. If real, where did it come from?
3. If synthetic, why was it necessary to start with water? Where did all the other elements come from (Carbon, Nitrogen, Misc other trace)?
4. If real, why was it necessary to start with water? Was this some kind of "packrat" teleportation, and some poor slob wound up with several wine jars full of water? Stealing is not all that miraculous.
5. Why allow your minions to get close enough to fuck with it? A really impressive miracle would be, "Go pick up that empty wine jar," and hey presto! it's full again!
In short, if this is a miracle, why did it need a stage magician's set up?
There is one explanation that occurs to me that does not require chicanery on the part of the god-man alleged to be Jesus in this story. The story is pure fiction, written from the perspective of a first century storyteller. Water is a necessary ingredient in the transmutation into wine because water is one of the four elements, earth, air, fire, and water. At the time this story was circulated, people believed that anything could be created from the proper combination of these four "elements". Wine being liquid, the closest "element" to wine is water, and this becomes the natural starting point for any being incapable of grasping all the ramifications of "all-powerful".
Unfortunately for the credibility of our storyteller, no matter which way you look at it, the universe doesn't work that way.
posted by breakerslion @ 1:11 PM
8 comments
8 Comments:
You missed an element: Mass hypnosis/hysteria. Tell some folks something and they will believe it, then they'll tell 2 friends, and they'll tell 2 friends, and so on...and so on....
ILD
If you want to play tricks on people, get them drunk first! Not that complicated.
http://www.xkcd.com/812/
also on a somewhat related note (the third toon):
http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1811170
Why did you stop posting? You write some good stuff!
Jewish and Christian tradition have long been the unique mountain where it all comes down to the fuzzy MissKreant. Precisely why OUR blogs are simply the best at solving the universal conflict. If you say there isn't a God, I say we shall ALL return to Jesus when you croak (your soul is indelible) and because I was an actual NDE, lemme share with you what I actually know Seventh-Heaven's gonna be like for you/me if you get in the boat, brudda: meet this ex-mortal Upstairs for the most-extra-groovy, pleasure-beyond-measure, Ultra-Yummy-Reality-Addiction in the Great Beyond for a BIG-ol, kick-ass, party-hardy, 1011011011...-yummy-flavors you DO NOT wanna miss the smmmokin’-hot-deal. YES! For God, anything and everything and more! is possible!! Cya soon
The last bit basically admits that if the story had involved empty jars instead of jars filled with water, that that itself would be evidence of people making up a story, as post-Enlightenment "brights" understand that these things can't happen and therefore witness of the miraculous is by definition either false witness or evidence of chicanery. It's not enough to merely not find it convincing; it's important to be so wise and enlightened that we won't be taken in by all this hokum that gets the incredulous rubes out there. For we are great, and greatly to be praised. The secular Pharisee stands in the university thanking Fate and himself that he is not like the troglodyte over there, worrying over sky daddies and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Why dabble in the religious hypocrisy of convincing oneself that arrogance is humility, when belief in one's self frees one to make a great virtue of arrogance?
Ah, the enticing scent of Argumentum ad Homenem et Argumentum ad Nauseum. I'm back.
One of the sharpest tools in the religious manipulator's bag of tricks is the accusation of arrogance for daring to call into question the superstitious and gullible nature of Iron Age rubes. ... not that there is any dearth of rubes today.
Ever hear the expression, "Here's mud in your eye?" It's origin is the same sediment in wine that is responsible for the punt in the bottom of wine bottles, although today they only serve to make the bottle look bigger than it is. What do you suppose would happen if you added water to a porous clay jar that used to hold red wine? Want to bet that the leftover sediment and wine residue would flavor the water and turn it red? Want to bet the guests were either a) too drunk to notice, or b) dehydrated enough from drinking alcohol that they found it delicious, or c) merely being polite?
There. A perfectly reasonable explanation that calls for no cheap magic that a Supreme Being need feel ashamed of the morning after.
Here's another: What if Jesus noticed that the servants had stashed a few jars for themselves, and threatened to rat them out unless they played along and coughed them up on cue? Don't put it past him. I suspect he only cured the lame beggars that had dirt on the soles of their feet.
Post a Comment
<< Home